Few years ago, after a quick encounter with black and white development processes, trying not to be one-trick pony and without proper preparation I jumped to color reversal process ORWO C-9165. This is an old, pre-E-6 process applicable to many color reversal films, but mainly intended for ORWO UT (Umkehrfilm für Tageslicht) and UK (Umkehrfilm für Kunstlicht) type of emulsions.
My under-preparation yielded mistakes that lead to experience, further enriched by spending time and time browsing old photo books to analyze what went wrong and understand better the process.
ORWO C-9165 is a hectic (by nowadays standards), long (>120 min.) process that follows the following steps:
- First (black and white) developer
- Stop bath
- Wash
- Re-exposure to light (500W bulb at 1 m. from film, 2 min. each side)
- Color developer
- Wash
- Bleach
- Wash
- Fix
- Wash
- Drying
Here is a leaflet from the original ORWO C-9165 chemicals kit:
Details about this process and its recipes I have posted here. Quite similar is AGFA Process 41, my experience with it is described here.
The most important step in ORWO C-9165 process is the first development (FD). Also, this is the step where you push or pull the film. 10-20% of over-development (depending on your film and its box speed) equals one stop of a push.
During the FD, the chemical agents create latent black and white image that is used during the second exposure step. Simply you create a fogged mask that will allow light to reach certain layers’ parts during the re-exposure step. This black and white fog/image is removed by the bleach bath later in the process.
Proper image, under this process, is created as a combination between first exposure, first developer and color developer. The rest of the steps are simply “process to completion”, e.g. you may not over-expose during second exposure (but you can under-expose during it!), over-bleach, over-fix, etc.
Few things I learned by trial and error and from old books about ORWO C-9165 are:
- you should not overexpose color reversal films — the rule of thumb you’ve heard “a decade after expiration date equals a stop slower” is not applicable with these films. If you overexpose (pull the film) you shall decrease the time of the FD. Color reversal films have small exposure latitude, compared to color negatives;
- you should not overdevelop in the FD — if you do this, FD will develop more silver salts, so less will remain for the color developer and thus you will get faint colors and low contrast;
- such old materials (mine are 30+ years old) are already fogged (heat, light, radiation…), so over-exposing or over-developing them in FD would yield more fog;
- washing between the steps of the process is very important — wash at least as prescribed, especially after color development.
So now, let’s have a look at the mistakes and their causes.
1. Solid, dense dark image with non-clear and non transparent dark colors
a.) cold first developer
b.) short first development time
c.) exhausted first developer
d.) insufficient agitation
However, if perforation and the space between exposures is normal black — film is underexposed.
2. Light, transparent image with underdeveloped light areas and unsaturated colors, areas without exposure are light
a.) over-development in the first developer
b.) exhausted, expired or cold color developer
c.) short color development time
d.) short second exposure
However, if non-exposed area is normal black film is overexposed.
3. Small pink/red circles with light center
There were small water drops during second exposure that acted like magnifying glass.
4. High color contrast and dense black color of not exposed areas
a.) color developer too warm
b.) color development time too long
5. Emulsion layer detachment
a.) factory hardening was bad
b.) if your water is too soft, you shall make an additional bath with magnesium sulfate
6. Yellow color shifted
a.) emulsion swell during second exposure — bulb was too close to the film
b.) drying was done in very high temperature
7. Red spots or overall red tone of the image
a.) color developer was not washed-off and remained in the bleach bath
b.) interaction with acid chemical
8. The image is normally dense, but the colors are not sharp
a.) bleaching was not enough, bleach again with fresh bath
10. Overall milky look of the image, green spots
a.) fixing was not enough, fix again with fresh bath
11. Dark concentric spots
a.) air bubbles in the first developer
12. Light concentric spots
a.) air bubbles in the color developer
13. Concentric spots with image when looked at reflected light
a.) if dark or gray on the back — bubbles in the bleach
b.) if green on the back — bubbles in the fix
re-bleach or re-fix to solve
14. Red-brown shift of the colors
a.) short second exposure
15. Dark brown even fog
a.) film developed as b/w negative
16. Fine grain structure of the image (reticulation)
a.) Big difference of baths’ temperature or pH
17. Blue-green image, with normal black unexposed areas
a.) Very old or poorly kept material
18. Transparent film with no images
a.) film lit
19. Dense, black film with no images
a.) film is not exposed
20. White deposits or spots
a.) washing not enough or water too hard
After all these wound-licking above, you may wonder what happens when you got a well-kept roll, expose it right and none of these misfortunes happen?
ORWO C-9165 is a great process, if:
- you have enough time and enthusiasm to learn methods of visual creating that are not so instant (I said nothing against Instagram, right?);
- you don’t easily get despondent — I did around 60 rolls of ORWO films under this process to get may be 20 with good results.
Proceed at your own peril.









7 Comments
[…] a post here. As you may read in the article, AP 41 is similar to ORWO C-9165 process (more about it here) and I made a few experiments with various films, most of them not exactly compatible with this […]
Hi, have you idea what could be problem when developed film has brown/red very dark highlites? Exposed part of leader is dark red and black is mostly transparent with brown tint. I tried Orwo UT21 AGFA ct8 and agfa cxt100 (which is e6 film) with same result. I could mix my chemicals badly, gonna try next day with freshly mixed chemicals (gonna followup to this comment). Can provide photos of my results if that helps – shot my an email if so 🙂
Hello Szymon–
Photos will definitely help. Will send you an e-mail.
Best regards,
Vesselin
Hi mate, thanks for all the tips. I actually also try to get warm with UT-18 and tried different things. (all at 25°C)
UT-18 as negative in C-41: does work, didn’t finished my tests. With color shift the image is working with color correction. Only tried 20min color dev
UT-18 in RA-4 does not produce any useful colors.
UT-18 in ECN-2 as positive, heres my workflow
FD: 10min HC-100 dil.B with 10ml 1% BZT
Wash: 2min
Reexposure: 2x2min with 50W LED at 3000k
SD in CD-3 ECN2: 20min
Wash: 10min
Bleach: 15min
Wash: 2min
Fix: 15min
In the end, the films have an overall green tint with kinda thin color image. The whites are whitetish with minimal green tint, the blacks are transparent with green tint. With color correction the images are useable but wont work for projection. Any hints into what direction i need to go? Maybe developement is thinner than usual due to ECN-2 formulation.
I shot the film at ISO6 due to age from1991/1988 otherwise i wont have enough light for first developer.
My next test would be shorter first dev, maybe 8min and somewhat longer color developement.
Best regards
Christian
Hej Christian–
Sounds interesting experiment, the UT in ECN2. Just checked your site, but could not find the tests.
I saw also that you wrote about ORWO PC-7. I have tons of this film, but could not find time to test it properly. I run once a test in C-9165 to get only very blue results, almost “day for night”.
If you are interested to try/test new films — let’s talk, I have a lot of films to offer.
Best regards,
Vesselin
Hi Vesselin,
thanks for the reply. I can send you pictures via mail, i haven’t published anything regarding this UT-18 so far on my website. I published my experiments with the Kodak Eastman 5251T using ECN-2. I recently increased the amount of CD-3 from 4g/l to 5.2g/l to get a better contrast and the 5251T comes out great.
What i have learned now from by experiments and with the help of Gemini-KI and older books is, that CD-4 should fit better into the CD-1 couplers than CD-3, but i haven’t tried the full reversal process with C-41 chemistry yet rather than the ECN-2. I now have a UT-18 135 to test in ECN-2 first before i will try again with the bigger 120 sized UT-18. Did you used 135 or 120 UT-18 films? I’m having trouble getting the 120 frames evenly developed in my tank regardless if i use rotation or inversion. Maybe i need to slow down my movement alot.
Regarding the PC-7, i aquired a 50m roll in an unopened can but have not tried this film yet. From the books it also is a CD-1 coupler film.
Best regards
Christian
Hi Christian–
Just sent you an e-mail.
BR,
Vesselin